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Current version is inaccurate. Describing the "Gay Agenda" as a "term used by sectors of the Christian religious right" is misleading. Otherwise the very next sentence wouldn't be showing how multiple secular govenments also use this language. "Critics" is a shorter and more accurate description. The use of the word "disparaging" is also unverifiable and overtly biased. Ozone742 (talk) 22:26, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia reflects the reliable sources. You'd need to provide WP:RS that support your interpretation.
"Critics" is unusual word for this – critics of what? Peoples existence? The WP:LEAD is a summary of the body, and it is well sourced that "gay agenda" is derogatory, so "disparaging" in the lead is appropriate. Zenomonoz (talk) 22:30, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please provide reliable sources for the use of the subjective term "disparaging." There are none in the article, and so the burden of proof lies with anyone supporting its use.
"Critics" is far from unusal, and claiming that this means being critical of people's existence is disingenuous. The topic is of advocating for LGBT movements. Not for advocating for the existence of people.
The lead already includes the Christian origin of the term. Makkng the description that I removed redundant, and it obviously conflicts with the fact that the very next sentence shows that multiple secular goverments use the term. Ozone742 (talk) 22:34, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've made a copy edit shifting reference to the Christian right, as the term is not used solely by them. That's the one part I do agree with you on. The rephrased sentence makes your desired range about "critics of LGBT" redundant anyway. Zenomonoz (talk) 22:37, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Side note, but apologies for responding in two places. I saw your response on here after I had already responded on your own page. Ozone742 (talk) 22:36, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I can't really follow this last response, but "disparage" seems pretty accurate to me based on the second source; I cannot access page 20 of the Routledge book. Denying that the term is "used by sectors of the Christian religious right"--I don't get it. It is used by sectors of the Christian religious right, possibly by all sectors. That it's also used by other speakers, including governments, is not relevant. Drmies (talk) 22:40, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Disparaging" is a subjective term, and I haven't seen any sources that definitely show this to be true. Some at least used that language but not everything in a source is inherently reliable.
I never denied that the term is used by Christian groups. Instead, I was saying that the term isnt exclusive to them, and the previous description made it sound like it was even though the next sentence clearly says otherwise. So its clearly relevant. Ozone742 (talk) 22:49, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Disparaging" and "pejorative" are synonymous. "Critics" is a weasel word. The most noteworthy critics of LGBTQ movements happen to be the Christian right. See Alvarado & Churchill (2019): More recently, the 'radical gay agenda' still exists among the Religious Right to condemn all efforts to change or introduce legislation on LGBTQ issues. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:50, 31 January 2025 (UTC)edited 06:07, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The two share similar similarities but are not actually synonymous. "Pejorative" is a word that implies negative connotation. Whereas "disparage" is akin to insult, and is about the intent behind it. Which involves knowing what said critics are thinking, and is inherently speculative.
Speaking of which, saying that "critics" is a weasel word is... strange.
Synonyms for pejorative, according to Merriam-Webster: insulting, slighting, derogatory, malicious, demeaning, disparaging, deprecatory, uncomplimentary, etc. This argument is silly. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:11, 31 January 2025 (UTC)edited 00:13, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It's very silly to just copy and paste words from a dictionary and think it counts as a reasonable response. If you have nothing to add then don't comment. Ozone742 (talk) 23:13, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Insulting people isn't being patient. I also don't wish to have to explain what synonyms are to what I'm assuming are grown adults. Ozone742 (talk) 23:19, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The didn't insult you, they insulted your argument. "This argument is silly" is different from "you are silly". I would agree that it's best to avoid such comments but most users make them on occasion. It hasn't reached incivility or personality attacks.. Zenomonoz (talk) 23:27, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I just quoted a reliable source to the effect that the Religious Right uses the term "gay agenda" to condemn efforts to introduce LGBTQ issues into legislation. How exactly do you condemn something without disparaging it? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:36, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is incredibly easy to condemn something without disparaging it. Disparaging involves deliberately belittling or insulting said thing. While condemning doesn't require that certain negative connotation to it.
Bottom line is you're trying to argue semantics over the use of a subjective word. Its pointless and harms the credibility of articles to include such language. Ozone742 (talk) 00:57, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The meaning of condemn is "to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil". Not sure how you do that without a negative connotation. There's arguing semantics, and then there's just denying the plain meaning of words. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 01:10, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There's also failure to properly read my comments. I didn't say condemnation has no negative connotations, but that it doesn't have the specific element of insulting or belittling like disparaging does. This isn't complicated. If you have nothing else to add then this is the end of this conversation. Ozone742 (talk) 01:19, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I see now that Zenomonoz tweaked the phrasing, probably in a way that suits you better. I still don't really see the problem: the term originates somewhere and then is used by others. That (quoting the edit summary) "Describing usage of the term as solely limited to Christian groups is inaccurate. As evidenced by the fact that secular govenments across the world use it " is not to the point. No one said it was "solely limited" etc., and "secular governments"--well, it's right-wing Christian governments and political groups using the term, isn't it. Drmies (talk) 22:44, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If you prefer restoring to the original phrasing, I'm not opposed. Just thought there was a bit of repetition there. I'd also add there are examples of conservative muslims using the term, although that is not on this article, so I guess "christians" is a bit limiting. Zenomonoz (talk) 22:52, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please read my previous comments. I never denied that the Christian right is where the term originates and that they still use the term. Only that the original wording was redundant and limiting. It conflicts with the literal next sentence.
I'm aware that nobody explicitly said it was "solely limited," but the wording originally implied that.
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